[Costumers] Question on German garb -- Late period

[Kerri Martinsen]

Ok - I did some hunting on the German Ren yahoo group and found this on
skirts:  I'm posting the message in its entirety for reference.  There was
considerable traffic after this post with a variety of comments, both for
and against, but I think it is a pretty good "overview".

Vitha
----------------------

From:   "Tonda Fuller" <hoyden_ish at h...>
Date:  Wed Jul 23, 2003  11:43 am
Subject:  Skirts and Bases (long post)

Recently, a bunch of us gathered to delve into our costuming books in
search of documentation for organ pleats, and to look into some of
the other questions that have arisen from my original question about
the documentation for this (namely, the shape of skirts, and the
likelihood that the skirts were taped to train the folds). Below are
the results.

ORGAN PLEATING

Let me begin with organ pleats. I can find no clear examples of this
type of pleating pre-19th century. I am not the only one. Drea Lead
states on her website in her section on rolled pleats: "This type of
pleat, which creates long, tubular pleats running from the waistline
to the ankle, is not commonly found. In fact, there is no hard and
fast evidence that it was used at all prior to Victorian times." She
goes on to add: "Nevertheless, it achieves the look of the pleats
found in several 16th century portraits and pictures , particularly
those of Lucas Cranach, better than any other kind of pleating I've
tried." I have no interest in disputing her opinion. I rather like
the appearance of these pleats, I just don't find them to be the most
historically accurate, or likely, choice. Nor do I find their
appearance superior to the commonly employed cartridge pleat.
Additionally, the BBC costuming department, in an interview about the
making of "Harvest Moon" in 1998 states: "The material was gathered
into the waist by organ pleating, a device peculiar to those years,
1841-1846, and composed of small tubular pleats drawn together. This
was replaced by flat pleating later." Payne, in "The History of
Costume" does state that women: " . . . wore skirts made in graduated
organ-pipe folds . . ." (p. 306), but she makes no reference as to
source of this information, and gives no documentation to support the
assertion, nor does she further explain or qualify the term "organ-
pipe folds" in any way. So, I am unable to come to any conclusion as
to the likelihood of the "organ-pipe folds" being related to, or a
type of, organ pleats.


EXTANT BASES

Upon examination of the picture of the extant bases in Blanch
Payne's "The History of Costume", we all concluded that they appear
to be cartridge pleated. The description isn't of much help, as it
simply reads: "A military skirt or bases in the collection of Arms
and Armor at the Metropolitan Museum (fig. 288) provides one answer
to the problem of how these bases were constructed. Padding, evenly
distributed as in a quilt or comforter, produced the rounded contour
of the folds. The reverse folds on the back, equally spaced, were
compressed and held in place by two parallel rows of braid." No
mention is made of the kind of pleats, just that the inside folds are
held in place (taped), and that the rounded appearance is caused by
the padding. The diagram isn't any better. It shows where the pleats
are located, and states: "Pleats are sharp on inside edge and soft
and rounded on the outside with straight panel in front." This could
mean anything. Though the organ pleats I've seen were not sharp on
the inner edge, so this sounds more like cartridge pleating. Since
neither picture shows a close up of the pleats (or an end-on shot of
them), and the diagram is not specific as to construction, I can come
to no solid conclusion without further information. The curator at
the Met says he will schedule an examination of the bases later in
the summer, and will get back to me with his findings. He also says
that these are not the only extant bases, and referred me to a
colleague of his in Germany. When I hear from either of them, I will
post their responses to the list.

CARTRIDGE PLEATING

As for Michaela's question: "I wonder why then it [cartridge pleats]
became the thing to use . . . also for other 16th c.
stuff . . . I know cartridge pleating was very popular for 1840s
dresses . . . " I can only state that cartridge pleating is used by
most of us as it is a well documented, period construction method,
and it gives the desired effect. We may not have any extant examples
from Germany (aside from, potentially, the Met's bases), but this
method is documented in many countries throughout Europe where
garments have survived (as so helpfully mentioned by Diana). And
while assuming is never 100% safe, it is relatively safe to
extrapolate that if this is how skirts were being pleated in Italy,
England and Spain, it is likely it was also a common method elsewhere
in Europe. 

CUT OF SKIRTS

On to Saragrace's issue (what shape the skirts were cut in). When I
stated that I believe (along with Julie Adams, Drea Lead, and many
other experienced historical costumers who have said much the same
thing on this list and elsewhere) skirts were most likely commonly
circle cut or gored, Saragrace wrote: "I'd be interested in how you
come to this conclusionŠ.IMHO, it isn't possible to tell conclusively
from the artwork." I'll agree that it isn't possible to tell from the
artwork, but I wasn't basing my assertion on artwork, but on examples
from tailor's pattern books (such as Juan de Alcega's, and The
Tailor's Book of Enns) as well as extant examples (such as the bases
in question). Further, Köhler states of our period: "The skirt had
formerly been cut as a complete circle, or made of two or‹according
to the width of the material‹four oblong pieces, with an equal number
of gussets at the seams." (p. 272). Now, Köhler's statements are far
from gospel to me, as I find some of his assertions highly
questionable, but I know many people who faithfully rely on him. I
have yet to see an extant example or pattern for a skirt made from a
simple length of rectangular cloth (which is not to say that the
common townspeople who made their own clothes did not do this, only
that professional tailors did not appear to).

TAPING

Lastly let me address the idea that women were taping the insides of
their dresses. While there is evidence that some men's bases were
taped, such as in Davenport's The Book of Costume (figure 450), and
the Payne diagram (both were already posted on the list under the
waffenrock file). There are also plenty of images of waffenrocks and
bases that are clearly not taped (e.g. see the detail from the
Breughel in the photo file titled "bases and skirts" as well as the
Cranach Judgement of Paris). Numerous images show this type of loose,
un-taped construction, where the bases drape naturally (just as many
images show bases that were likely taped as per the example in
Davenport). So for men's bases it is possible to assert that they
likely appeared in both taped and un-taped versions.

As to women's skirts, I have seen no evidence to support the idea
that women were taping their skirts. The only support for this idea
are the extremely stylized and idealized paintings by Cranach, and if
you study the pictures closely, you will see that his skirts break
and fall naturally (in a way they wouldn't if taped) when the women
are seated (as pointed out by Cherylyn). Also, a great number of his
paintings do not reflect the pleated ideal we commonly associate with
him, being clearly pleated at the waist, but falling smoothly to the
ground. Furthermore, by simply following the rule of thumb for
documentation (3 examples, at least two from different sources), this
idea is not substantiated. The overwhelming majority of examples from
other early period artists do not support the theory. For examples of
what I mean, please see the images in the photo file "bases and
skirts", where I have shown examples from Cranach and more than 10
other artists, all clearly demonstrating that the skirts break and
drape. It is not possible to say definitively that skirts were never
taped, only that there is no documentation or support for the idea,
so it is not safe to assert that they were. This is not to say that
if, for whatever reason, you desire to achieve the hyper-stylized
Cranach look you can't do this, only that you can not do this and
assert that you are being historically accurate.

All of this being said, if you want to look like many of the Cranach
portraits, you're going to have to tape your skirts (but then you'll
look strange when you sit). And if you prefer the organ pleats, then
use them, but be aware that they're of questionable historical
veracity. And if you don't want to circle cut your skirts, then
don't. 

There are (at least) three types of people on this list: Those who
are involved in historical re-enacting purely for the recreational
fun of it (you make your costumes, you wear them, and you have a good
time); those who are deeply invested in "authenticity" and research
(sometimes to the exclusion of "fun"); and what is likely the vast
majority of us, who fall somewhere in-between. Most of us want to be
as historically accurate as possible, but sometimes you have
to "fake" it or "fudge" it, because there are simply no extant
examples to go by, and no clear evidence to draw black and white
conclusions from. 

If anyone discovers documentation for organ pleats or taping, I would
be very interested in seeing it.

-Tonda/Katinka



On 9/7/03 6:22 PM, "Belphoebe" <belfebe at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi there!
> 
> I have a question regarding German garb.  I am working
> currently on Arnold's German doublet.  I have no
> problem with that, as Arnold has a lot of detail in
> the construction.  However, I would like to make the
> matching skirt, and I notice that there is nothing in
> Arnold's regarding the construction such a garment
> (German).
> 
> There is an image of a painting of a lady wearing that
> same kind of doublet with a matching skirt on pages 42
> and 43 (figs 302 and 303) of Arnold's, and I have seen
> the same style in Vecellio's Renassaince Costume book,
> page 96, figure 307, as well as in two other paintings
> posted in The Frazzled Frau website.  All of them seem
> to have come from Augsburg.
> 
> Here is my question:  Would those skirts have been
> cartridge pleated?  And what would they have worn
> unterneath other than underskirts?  From the paintings
> it is difficult to tell, but it seems to me that they
> were not wearing a farthingale.  Would a bumroll be
> involved?  And if not cartridge pleated, what kind of
> pleating was used?  Would the cut be similar to an
> English skirt?  Would it have been open or closed?
> 
> Thanks a million,
> 
> Belphoebe
> 
>